Curse

Old Dood · Jul 26, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

A good way to get into a group is to team up with a guildie/friend monk, and join a group together ... everybody wants the monks and they'll take the mesmer or 2 mesmers too if the monk is only coming as part of the set

Worked for me (monk) and my mesmer buddies.

Since I play on Europe I've only been to UW/Fissure for one blissful night though, when miraculously we had favor for several hours. haven't seen Europe have favor since

EXACTLY!! By working with your Friends/Guildies people have to take the Unloved Character. What is suprising is most times that the unloved character is the catalist that wins the mission. This is why my Friend/Guildmate both now have Monks. We can force the PUG to accept the other friend's character.

Tutompop · Jul 26, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I sympathize with your animosity towards the original "griefer" who told you he would do the bonus. However, it is disturbing to see the lack of rational thought that was displayed. I'm sure part of it was surely due to the emotion of anger you felt at being deceived but it still doesn't justify your actions, ESPECIALLY that close to the end. And no there is NOT a significant chunk after the obelisks. He opens a door/cutscene/done. You surely screwed at least 2 other people who put as much time into the mission that you did even if their goals weren't the same.

I've been in the same situation where I wanted to help lowbies do a bonus or guildmates run a bonus and some jackass only wants the mission so he sprints to the cutscene or does something mission critical to screw us out of it. Yes it sucks, yes I don't appreciate it when I can't keep my word because some fool feels the bonus isn't worth doing. I'm not saying it is but if I tell you we're doing it before the mission I expect you to be willing to do it. I'm not asking you to go out of your way to help a perfect stranger but would it be so much to ask for us to at least pretend we're not all still in pre-school and johnny took my macaroni paste again?

Btw, if you really need justification from others then you already know what you did was wrong. As to those saying you were justified, they're just as likely to tell you to "stfu noob, stop asking where the merchant is" five times rather than tell you to hold down alt and help you out. Ya, the lower level community has turned into a completely different beast than it was the first month. It's amazing how rude/assanine some people can be. Oddly enough, the aholes always seem to have a storm bow or some obviously twinked item. Just because you finished the game the first time doesn't give you the right to be an ass about it the second or third time around.

Weezer_Blue · Jul 26, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

'Deserved it'. Thanks for being judge, jury and executioner. Most griefers are entirely convinced the others 'deserved it', even for reasons as silly as "they're noobs". Stop boasting kindergarten logic please.

Why not? It's the fastest and most respectful way to accomplish what they were originally trying to do. 'Teaching lessons' is petty revenge. You're not teaching anyone anything, you're sinking down to their level, and waste perfectly good time doing so.

It may be faster and more respectful way to accomplish my original task, but after they caused me grief, and thus are griefers by your logic, my new task is to piss them off as much as humanly possible before going onto my final reward. What does this do? Well, it may have taken 2 minutes longer, but in the end, I feel better about watching that party die after they knowingly screwed me.

And, if you didn't notice, you're a hypocrite. You just called him a griefer, and then continued to tell him not to judge others behavior and if they deserved it or not. Do you think griefers deserve no retribution? If they're going to be assholes, I'm going to get my kicks out of bringing them down a peg every chance I get.

Talesin Darkbriar · Jul 26, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Wow.
I never agree with Weezer usually, but he is right on the mark this time.
People accuse me of being condescending, but I can simply tell them,
"no,no, refer to Silmor for perfect example of an arrogant dick."

Old Dood · Jul 26, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin Darkbriar

Wow.
I never agree with Weezer usually, but he is right on the mark this time.
People accuse me of being condescending, but I can simply tell them,
"no,no, refer to Silmor for perfect example of an arrogant dick."

Now Now Now... If you are going to call someone names then do it with style and politeness. I would suggest: Arrogant Richard Cranium!

Teklord · Jul 26, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I'm with you guys on this one. Simply put, if someone intentionally slaps me down I'm not going to simply bow and walk away from them in silence. I will get back up and slap them 10 times harder, its what they deserve and if they do it to me it is definitely what they'll get.

Everyone has a breaking point, and there is only so much crap we can take in life. Real life or otherwise.

Mercury Angel · Jul 26, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Vengeance is an easy concept, and forgiveness a difficult one.
Especially in context.

However, rather than being upset that someone isn't perfect enough to be nailed to a cross for me, I appreciate their position, and am simply glad they took out their frustrations on those who broke their unwritten social contract (completing the bonus) instead of entirely unrelated people.

Besides, I'm hardly in a position to lecture on choosing the path of forgiveness over vengeance, having exacted painful retribution in kind to those few who've managed to emotionally harm me. Do I regret it? In part, but less so because feelings of pain and betrayal linger for a long time- Anger doesn't.

Wrong or right, I still appreciate the OP's post as an entertaining short story.

Hoyt · Jul 26, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote: Silmor : "'Teaching lessons' is petty revenge. "
I agree 100% with Silmor on this one point....

Its just petty revenge- plain and simple.
Yes, its childish, unsportsmanlike, & annoying….

But on the other hand - its soooo much fun.

And this, my friends, is the moral conundrum.
If you weigh the pleasure that you will get from giving someone what you believe to be their come uppins against the actual “evil/bad” factor , I think the giddy glee will win out over the “is this gonna ensure a spot in hell for me?”.
Sadly, I have way too much Catholic guilt infused into my being to be able to actually partake in most forms of petty revenge. So, I must enjoy it vicariously through others…those with courage and lack of social graces.
*sigh*

TheGreatBoo · Jul 26, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Eh, pretty much just hench your way until you're at the wilds. This ensures that you won't get into moronic groups who don't listen and then bitch when something bad happens.

hydrak · Jul 26, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

it felt bad... but it was still kind of cool...

We were doing... I think it was Ruins of Surmia... I could be wrong. I partied with one other who was in it only for the bonus and I advertised specifically that I wanted the bonus and the mission. I was also on my first mission with a newly recruited guildmate. This was the bonus where you have to follow the flame carriers to the corridor and kill them, it ends with the finding of the Horn and the crazy warp to Nolani academy.

We, by the team leaders run, not spoken direction, ran ahead of the flame carriers instead of following them. I suspected that he was leading us to the locked gate where we would just wait for them to arrive instead of following them slowly. We instead ran along to where the mission takes us normally. I kept shouting out that I am in this for the bonus which I made clear before entering the mission but I got no reply besides "come"... I trusted apprehensively.

We arrived at the crazy drunken slanted temple where three mages control obelisks and I realized, this guy is going to finish the mission without doing the bonus. No. So instead of helping them defend I ran out of the temple and aggroed several mobs and drew them in to the mages. I continued running around till the party was dead with only me remaining.

I then climbed up onto one of the obelisks and sat down. I sat there (looking quite peaceful, this is the cool part) while the Charr tore me apart. While getting killed someone shouted out "res" I replied simply with "I'm in this for the bonus, I made it clear from the start"

The reply to this (from the team leader) was "**** YOU! YOU DON'T LISTEN!!!" to which I replied "who doesn't listen? I've told you repeatedly that I wanted to do the bonus and you've said nothing on it. In fact, listen to what? You've said nothing except for "come" since the mission started."

I died, went back to the outpost and left the group to start a new party. One of the members in the same guild who was also in the failed party joined us and (as I suspected) dropped about halfway. It was probably an attempt at revenge, but it's easy enough with 3 people anyway.

I realized later that there was a significant chunk after the slanted temple, and that he probably intended to go back after this initial fight, but communication is important. He could have.... should have at least let us know the basics of his plan. Or said anything besides "come."

I felt bad... I'm not the kind of person who enjoys griefing or sabotaging. And I don't get off on revenge of this sort. However, the method in which I died, kneeling submissively below an obelisk taking the damage as it came to me, was pretty cool.

Without question, you are a griefer. If the leader doesn't listen to you, it doesn't give you the right to screw up the mission and waste the time of the other 5 or 6 players. If you can't take it out on the leader of the group, then just leave. It's as simple as that. This forum doesn't need this kind of bragging craps from griefers like you.

Like terrorists, if they hate the leader of a country, do you think they have the right to kill the people of that country?

Arcador · Jul 26, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I am not proud when "my devils overwhelm" neither I post it in forums.

eventhorizen · Jul 26, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

And what about the other two people that were in your group? Its a shame there is no punishment for the waste of food material and oxygen that is the OP's sham of an existance.

Perhaps A.net should read this post and think very carefully about introducing some kind of complaint system for intentional greifing?

The OP was the only one that didnt get everything his own way out of that group, from what I read, so he totally ruined the mission for the other 3 people for 'revenge'.

This is greifing, free admissions such as this post should be taken as a confession of guilt, and offenders should be severely punished.

As I have said many times in many places, this game is fast becoming a FARCE.

In your own inwardlooking self obssessed existance there is no room for anything other than the complete satisfaction of your own desires, well that fair enough in your own home if your own parents wont stop you, but in public? Disgusting and must be stopped NOW.

All the other MMO's I play would class this type of behaviour intentional grieifing. It does not enhance an atmosphere of competition, or of roleplay which would be the only catagories such behaviour would be acceptable in other games.

All I can say is A.net are very lucky its not a pay per month, but an update based income, otherwise the vast majrity of gamers that will still be around in a year or so if these recent trends continue WILL be under 16 idiots who couldnt afford to pay monthly anyway.

I cant describe how much this type of behaviour is utterly rife and totally sickening within the game. I put up with it personally because I enjoy the game, but if it was slightly less quality than it is I would be long gone.

Get this crap sorted A.net, what spoilt children can get away with ingame can be just as damaging as a mass exploit/cheats/and utterly bugged gameplay to a games life.

Seriously, sort it.

QTFsniper · Jul 26, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

it felt bad... but it was still kind of cool...

We were doing... I think it was Ruins of Surmia... I could be wrong. I partied with one other who was in it only for the bonus and I advertised specifically that I wanted the bonus and the mission. I was also on my first mission with a newly recruited guildmate. This was the bonus where you have to follow the flame carriers to the corridor and kill them, it ends with the finding of the Horn and the crazy warp to Nolani academy.

We, by the team leaders run, not spoken direction, ran ahead of the flame carriers instead of following them. I suspected that he was leading us to the locked gate where we would just wait for them to arrive instead of following them slowly. We instead ran along to where the mission takes us normally. I kept shouting out that I am in this for the bonus which I made clear before entering the mission but I got no reply besides "come"... I trusted apprehensively.

We arrived at the crazy drunken slanted temple where three mages control obelisks and I realized, this guy is going to finish the mission without doing the bonus. No. So instead of helping them defend I ran out of the temple and aggroed several mobs and drew them in to the mages. I continued running around till the party was dead with only me remaining.

I then climbed up onto one of the obelisks and sat down. I sat there (looking quite peaceful, this is the cool part) while the Charr tore me apart. While getting killed someone shouted out "res" I replied simply with "I'm in this for the bonus, I made it clear from the start"

The reply to this (from the team leader) was "**** YOU! YOU DON'T LISTEN!!!" to which I replied "who doesn't listen? I've told you repeatedly that I wanted to do the bonus and you've said nothing on it. In fact, listen to what? You've said nothing except for "come" since the mission started."

I died, went back to the outpost and left the group to start a new party. One of the members in the same guild who was also in the failed party joined us and (as I suspected) dropped about halfway. It was probably an attempt at revenge, but it's easy enough with 3 people anyway.

I realized later that there was a significant chunk after the slanted temple, and that he probably intended to go back after this initial fight, but communication is important. He could have.... should have at least let us know the basics of his plan. Or said anything besides "come."

I felt bad... I'm not the kind of person who enjoys griefing or sabotaging. And I don't get off on revenge of this sort. However, the method in which I died, kneeling submissively below an obelisk taking the damage as it came to me, was pretty cool.

Thanks for giving me another name to add to my ignore list

Hoyt · Jul 26, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

Like terrorists, if they hate the leader of a country, do you think they have the right to kill the people of that country?

Its not even remotely similar and is a bad comparison.

DrSlugFly may be a saboteur, but he is nothing close to a terrorist.
A terrorist is a radical who employs terror as a political weapon.
I am pretty sure there wasn't that much thought put into the whole thing.

stingite · Jul 26, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I've been reading these boards for a while and posting here and there and slug's generally a good guy that tries to contribute to the community here. To me it just sounds like he got his one bout of griefing out and had to share it to the community's damning or praising. I don't have many judgments about the act itself, but I praise him for continuing to make the guildwarsguru site an interesting read. Him sharing his experience helps us take a look at what we would do in the situation if it were us . . . a good exercise to undertake when reading posts like this.

In life we deal with conflict in four basic ways.

passive positive
passive negative
active positive
active negative

It's pretty safe to say Slug's reaction was active negative in this case. Purposefully throwing the mission to prove a point.

passive positive reaction? Among other things, go with the party, finish the mission, and try to get the bonus later.

passive negative reaction? leave the group.

active positive reaction? possibly stopping the group in its tracks and forcing them to communicate with you about the plan? Come to an agreement that the same group would redo the mission for the bonus? I'm not sure, but if you're looking for positive solutions and you're not the passive type, I am sure that you could come up with something that would work.

Hope to see DrSLUGfly continue to post on these boards either way. ;-)

Dead Weight · Jul 26, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

In this case I feel for the OP and his plight. I think I've been presented with many similar circumstances in PUG's. This is part of the reason I recruit guild members for missions first!

I agree with all the points about how he shouldn't have thrown the mission for revenge et al. I also agree that he has a right to be frustrated. He just expressed it in a fit of rage that can be cumulative from multiple poor PUGs.

What I find myself stuck on is that I believe in the statment, "we teach others how to treat us." By allowing the leader to get what he wants even though he doesn't listen to his "charges" we allow him and others like him to continue to abuse others and do what he wants without listening to others.

On the flip side, by reacting in a "negative" way teaches him that he needs to ignore the poor "charge" and be more forceful in tone.

I agree that the best thing to do in this case is not to move forward till a working agreement can be made. Mission objectives should be the leader's job before starting any mission and it's also the other party members responsibility to ensure they are in the right group. I definitely don't mind when a new party member joins they ask a few questions.

-DW

Sanji · Jul 26, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Thoughts on this thread and the topic of retalitory griefing:

This time I'm 'a let it all come out
This time I'm 'a stand up and shout
I'm 'a do things my way
It's my way
My way, or the highway

God, I love/hate the internet.

Captain Arne Is PRO · Jul 26, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

i was doing the mission "Frost Gate" and my group wouldnt skip scenes. so i took the torch, lit two of the green fire beacons, and then went upstairs and made myself lunch. haha!

Teklord · Jul 26, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Wouldn't skip scenes? Now that the end result is not justified.

It's one thing to get 'revenge' when the mission was clearly laid out as "Mission AND Bonus" at the beginning, and then someone decides they don't want the bonus...
But doing something like that, nah uh. There is a first time for everyone, I don't skip cutscenes if it is my first time through the mission - and I don't care if others don't like that.

MasterQu · Jul 26, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Get one thing straight I do not condone or support the actions taken by my fellow gamers. I do however have a sense of justice that I believe needs to be addressed in such a thread. The persons I see who are saying that griefing is wrong are looking at things from the wrong perspective.

Lets look at the first story. The person had an agreement that he was there for the bonus only. All party members had a oppertunity to read this and accept this condition or decline it. Once the party started with the person in tote they accepted the agreement that they were going to do the bonus. After about 30 mins of time for, all party members, it was then made evident that the persons 30 mins of time was to be wasted without fullfilment of said agreement. Approx 5-10 mins later the person who wanted to do the bonus took action and ended the mission. Hence wasting 40 mins of time for all party members including himself.

When we look at this situation, it is obvious to the most casual of observers that both the party and the person erred abiet in different fashion.

Now ask yourself this:

Is it right that the party and the leader wasted 30 mins of the persons time?
Should the people of the party in some way have been punished?
Is there a system to exact said punishment?
Is one persons time more valuable than anothers?

After I asked those questions, I concluded that the person did what he felt was correct action with the only means he had available. He used Hamuabis code "An eye for and eye". He took time from them as they took time from him. You might call it grief you might call it poor sportsmanship. But it was Justice.

Seriously what is fair? That the party members reached there goals when he helped them and was not able to attain his?

One thing I will say, right or wrong at least he stood up for himself and didn't just lie down and take it by leaving.